Vic Briggs Commented on my How Feminism Hurts men post with a Lets talk opinions post of her own.  Comments and insights on complex topics like gender equality are often ill suited for the actual comment section.  I find this to be a wonderful Idea.  It is what I did with the How Feminism Hurts Men Post.

Let me start by saying thank you to Vic Briggs.  Really and truly thank you.  I disagree with you.  I will be using some harsh language to disagree with you.  This does not mean I don’t respect you.  You have engaged in a conversation that is well and truly about gender equality.  You have stood up and voiced your opinion in an open forum.  This takes great strength of character.  You have provided real and useful feedback on my words.  For this I say thank you.

Now to be mean.  Quote mining and misinterpretations.  That is all you’ve got to argue against me.  Really?  That’s a bit sad.

So lets look at the first bit of mining.

From day one Feminism has been elevating women at the expense of men.

Yea, first sentence of a paragraph and out of context.  This line is followed by a full paragraph comparing Male privilege to slave ownership.  Maybe you need a more clear example.  Lets look at the affects of women’s suffrage.  I will reduce the population down to a representative 10 women and 10 men.  Before women’s suffrage each man was 10% of the electorate.  After suffrage he was only 5%.  Women gaining the right to vote cut the power of each man’s vote in half.  The question is not if this is true, but if it’s justified.  Women are people, women are subject to the law.  Women need a say in the law.  While women voting did give power to women at the expense of men, it was well and truly justified.  Feminism is about smashing the patriarchy and ending privilege.  In almost every thing feminism is fighting for, this is the mechanic at play in the power structure.  The question is not if it helps women at the expense of men, but if it’s justified.

But wait a little. It gets better. Feminism in The Poisoned Well’s depiction comes close to the likeness of a savage werewolf “Tearing men down to elevate women”* apparently.

No clue where the savage werewolf came from, well I do actually.  Solipsism.  Feminism has built up a backwards and hateful cannon of dogma that claims men are oppressors and women are oppressed victims.  So long as you only live inside your own head with out ever looking at the real world, this is believable.  Smashing “The Patriarchy” would be a good thing.  Except there is no Patriarchy, really all feminism is doing is attacking men.  Ending “Male Privilege” would be a good thing.  Except that it’s a misnomer and feminism is just tearing men down.

Amusing note on the word werewolf.  The Word “Man” is actually gender neutral.  In old English there where prefixes to establish gender.  Wereman for male and Wifman for female.  Were- is the male identifier in English, not man.  This also takes the terror out of “werewolf” since it means nothing more than male wolf.

Next up are the rape statistics and victimization.

Umm… Dearest, The Poisoned Well, you might want to look into some stats on this. You will find that women are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. I’m not sure what country you live in to have experienced this, but in most civilised places, men are not excluded from most victim services. They are not excluded full stop.

Women are not overwhelming the victims of rape.  In non-institutional settings Men are 50% of rape victims.  If you include rape in institutional settings (Prison rape) then men are 2 out of every 3 rape victims.

More to the point is that 40% of Rapists are women.  Telling men not to rape is bigotry.

Men are excluded from victim services.  Domestic violence is not “Violence against women”.  It is Domestic Violence with equal numbers of male and female victims, equal numbers of male and female perps.  In the USA there are about 2,000 battered women’s shelters.  At last count there where 4 battered men’s shelters.  The UK has provisions for 7,500 domestic violence refugees, and only provision for 60 men.  So yeah men are excluded from victim services.

You are right that inequality and discrimination is part of our everyday lives. It has not “become” this, it’s always been the case, but implying that the Feminist movement is somehow responsible for this is beyond inaccurate.

It is every bit as true and accurate and useful and progressive as blaming it on “The Patriarchy”

Men are murdered by other men mostly, so… this is relevant to a discussion of Feminism… how?

Well because YOU just made it a gender issue.  More men are murdered Full stop end of story.  Who is doing the murdering is irrelevant, unless you want to make it a gender issue, and then it is most decidedly relevant in a discussion of feminism.  But then this is an issue that men face, not women.  Men are disposable meat shields so they don’t matter.

You seem to be under the erroneous impression that society should ignore sexual harassment because there are other “more important” things to resolve first.

There are limited resources.  Only so much can be done so fast.  If we are going to address cat calls then resources must be pulled from something else.  What should we pull resources from to make sure less women’s feelings get a boo boo?  Should we stop funding murder investigations?  Should we stop funding foster care?  Should we stop funding the 4 men’s shelters?  How about the women’s shelters?  Do we prioritize women’s feelings over women’s physical saftey?

The best way to deal with catcalls is not to “teach men not to rape”, but to teach women to have thicker skin.  Men and women both deal with harassment daily.  Men are just socialized to brush it off and ignore it.  Women are socialized to cry victim.

Whatever system of thought or belief you may subscribe to, reducing religion to the above formula hardly cuts the mustard. It is a parody at best, and it’s hardly the way to encourage equality, or even the most basic form of mutual respect in this context.

I do not have nor do I want mutual respect with bigots.  Bigots need to be called out on their bullshit and shown the light of day.  Respect is earned, and can be lost.  Religion, like any other form of bigotry is not worthy of my respect.  People are equal, ideas and dogmas are not.

Well, aren’t I lucky to have been disabused of this notion about the continued gender inequality when it comes to salaries?

Did you read past the first line?  Men and women are paid the same for the same work.  The wage gap is not unequal pay for equal work, but different pay for different work.  There is a real question in our gender segregated workforce why Programers and worth so much more than Nurses why Engeeres are worth so much more than teachers.  The problem we need to look at is why construction workers make more than secretaries.

Feminism has apparently abolished the heroic male lead in cinematography

Not what I said.  “The Heroic Male Lead” is best described as watch the mutilation of a disposable meat shield.

So again Thank you.  Your arguments may be bunk, but you are actually engaging.  You are really talking.  I do have a suggestion for you.  Re read your post.  And for every single point, ask yourself how is this different than the right wing anti-choicers?  Most of your points, I understand why you made them.  They are just the same things the anti-choicers says about pregnancy, they use the same catastophizing thinking flaw.  I understand that what I’m saying is going against many of your deeply held foundational beliefs.  Just because you belive it does not make it true.  I will suggest a great Youtube series “The bomb on the Brain”.


Edit/Update:From the comments thread, I forgot to include this.

You did include a link and the pingback and are continuing the conversation. It was an oversight to not include this in post. You do deserve credit for this honesty. You are being much more honest than most people that argue these points.